Someone I know passed their driving test years ago (like 20+) and got their full license. 10+ years ago they submitted their license for a change of address but they now realise that the license never came back.
Talking to the DVLA, the DVLA now says that there was never a full license issued and that they'll have to re-do the test, apply for a license etc. etc.
The DVLA says it's not possible that the full license was ever issued.
Does anyone know whether or not insurance companies run your license details when you're insured? Seems to me it'd be a pretty sizeable loophole if you can be insured without actually being licensed..?
Any idea of another way to try to work out what the license details were?
Clearly there's been a muckup in the system but without independant verification that a license was in place, it seems likely the DVLA can just deny its existance until the cows come home..
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Firstly 10+ years ago insurance companies most certainly did not run your licence details. However, depending on his age and whether or not he used a broker it is just possible that they may have taken a photocopy.
Is the testing stations still open ? How far back do their records go ?
However, back to the DVLA first, have they got his details confused with someone else ? Can he remember his driver number as a cross-check ?
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The testing station still exists as far as I know, but once you pass the test you apply for the full license. The DVLA knows the test was passed but apparently has no record of issuing a full license so they're saying it just wasn't applied for.
They can't remember the drivers license number - that's what I was hoping that a recent insurance renewal might've verified as a matter of course.
The person is, perhaps unreasonably but perhaps not, not keen to wander into the brokers' and say "err, do you have a copy of my license because the DVLA says I don't have one and I've been driving without one for 20+ years". If it was 100% that the insurance company checked this rather than the broker coincidentally having a copy then they'd be more inclined to draw attention to the situation.
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Ah. Well there is definitely a time limit within which you have to apply for the licence itself.
Not to be rude, but given that your friend forgot the licence didn't come back for 10 years, is there any chance that they are mistaken and that a full licence truly was never issued ?
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They recall sending it off for the address change. It's always easier to spot the presence of something than the absence of something..
If my gas bill didn't land on the mat, I'm not sure I'd chase it down (partly because I wouldn't want to but partly because I just wouldn't notice). Probably a poor example, but know what I mean?
How about credit scoring agencies - would they have a license # on record?
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They might, but the driver number would be the same whether it was a provisional licence or a full licence.
If his licence has not actually expired then I assume that he must have passed a bike test or something ?
All a driver number would enable you to do is check that the DVLA were actually looking at the correct person's details. He ought to be able to check that depending on the address they have for him. Was the change of address ever done ?
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I assume the change of address wasn't done.
I see what you're saying re. driver #.
So, in essence, since the DVLA denies the existence of the full license and since it's unlikely that the broker copied the license, they're shafted.. They'll have to re-do the test (incl. written now), get a new license, start fresh with insurance etc. The chance that the DVLA will put its hands up are slim, I'm sure.
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It was a car test. The allegation is essentially that this person passed the test but didn't apply for the full license, and has thus been driving around merrily for 20+ years with insurance but with no license.
They've never been ticketed so I guess there's never been cause to present the license.
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Firstly it should have no effect on their insurance since they have earned, presumably, years and years of NCB.
Secondly, the licence will have now expired, meaning that he'll even have to apply for a provisional licence first, unless there was some other category for which he did have a full licence - bike etc.
However, I have to say it sounds like your friend is stuffed unless he can persuade them that the mistake is theirs.
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The insurance co. isn't going to say "hey, you've only just gotten your license, we're going to zap your NCB"?
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Random idea, but your friend might have used his license as ID when starting a bank account. I was looking into starting a new bank account recently (Barclays have no idea of customer service, any recommendations?) and saw that they accept DLs as proof of ID. This might have been different years ago, but they might possibly have a photocopy of your friends license.
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Just as a thought.
If he sent his old licence off for an address change and that was never done has he checked that they haven't still got him registered at his old address? A long shot, I grant you, but might be worth the question, stranger things have been known to happen, especially at Swansea.
Cockle
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stranger things have been known to happen, especially at Swansea. Cockle
I agree with this, they managed to deleate the track laying catagree off my license then said I had to retake the test if I wanted it back.I even had a photo copy of the original but Swansea won't accept photo copy's as proof.I new a chap who lost his HGV through similar cercumstances, he took his test again, said it was easier than arguing the toss with Swansea.
chris
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Your friend is not the only one to have this problem. A couple of years ago Motorcycle News highlighted two cases where drivers had sent their licences to Swansea to have adress details changed, and the new copies came back without the motorcycle entitlement. The DVLA would not budge on the matter, as their computer showed car only entitlement.
The problems arose from the time when DVLA records were computerised, and in some cases mistakes were made in transfering records from hard copy. When I moved eighteen months ago I got my solicitor to witness and photocopy both mine and my wife's licence, and to keep a couple of copies herself. Added a bit to the bill no doubt, but cheaper than having to take a retest.
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My assumption was that it was a data transfer issue too.
Anyone happen to know if they still keep the original hard copy files then? I'm guessin' not but..?
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Over the past few years the computer press (computer weekly and computing) have often commented on the poor IT systems in place at the DVLA, and various problems with the 'quality' of the data that it held. It wouldn't suprise me if the details had been dropped at some stage or not even entered in the first place.
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Having had a little involvement with Government agencies and local authorities I would have no faith in anything held on their systems.
Also note that data being entered on the National Police Computer can take up to 400-odd days to be updated.
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Well I\'m $#&($#% !!!
After all this time I just worked out a work-around to let me delete a note from the middle of a thread without deleting the following ones.
Huh, wish I\'d worked it out long ago.
However, its a lot of work so its not gonna happen that often.
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Just to add another thorn...
Plod stops driver and asks for Driving Licence. Out trots the above story, so Plod sends DQ1 to Swansea and it comes back NO DRIVING LICENCE and no record of one having been issued, so Driver gets sheeted for No Driving Licence. And examination of Insurance Cerificate finds that it only covers 'a person who holds or has held a Licence and is not Disqualified.'
Now all this goes to Court and the beaks feeling bellicose record a Guilty plea on No DL and No Insurance. Because under these circumstances the only Licence that could be held is a Provisional then if L plates were no displayed and driver accompanies he will pick up additional endorsements for these.
This wants sorting one way or another does it not? There is reference to a pass cerificate being issued. Hasn't this the Drivers number on it, which incidentally for those who do not know is only a combination of date of birth, first five letters of surname and extra digits.
DVD
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I\'m having problems similar to this. This, my case, has been going on continuously now since mid-86!
I was stopped in 86 on two seperate occasions (by the same copper as well!)
I was asked to produce..yes yes I said ok no problem ha ha see yah ( I was an idiot at the time).
Anyway the enevitable ,I end up in court, charge dwith two counts of \'Driving without a full Driving Licence\'. I plead not Guilty.(I had passed my test in 82).
OK with me so far? Ok They say I don\'t have one!...Incredulous!..I have a licence says I...athe case then drags on for a year...during this time, I read that there had been a fire at DVLA and that a certain amount of records covering initials a through? had been destroyed! (They were in the process of transfering stuff from hard copy to computer at the time)
So, I show this to my solicitor who in turn shows te prosecution as she was obliged to. Result? I recieve a \'Not Guilty\' from the magistrates. great says I ..I can get a replacement Licence (I had lost my original hence the case)..
As I was saying now they have to give me a replacement :) :smiles: ....Yeah in my dreams! 15 nearly 16 years on I am still fighting to get my Full licence re-issued. They have no trace of it, so they say I have no record. THEY WILL NOT under ANY circumstance admit LIABILITY!
I have had it proved in a British Court of Law, by being found \'NOT GUILTY\' and still they refuse to accept this! This means they place them selves higher than a Court of Law..
Work that out or Listen to there \'Broken Record Reply\' Thinks I\'ll record it for the laugh though I know it by heart now \'Wehave no record of you ever holding a Full licence, there fore you do not have one...
Oh and forget the TEST Center...They only hold the record for three years..I know ..I checked..
Any links to Muck-ups by these people would be greatly appreciated
My apologies for the long post
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Fred - this story beggars belief. Personally, to be quite honest, if I was on a jury, I would find it difficult to believe your friend rather than DVLA in this case. The reason being
a. it is amazing that in 20 years your friend has never needed to produce his license on any occasion.
b. it is amazing that he is certain that the license was submitted for address change but is certain it never came back.
c. most people would have some sort of duplicate record of important documents, if not a photcopy then at least not of number/date-of-issue/etc.
d. is it possible that the friend just forgot to apply for a full license thinking that the pass certificate was all that he needed?
You say "The DVLA knows the test was passed but apparently has no record of issuing a full license so they're saying it just wasn't applied for" which indicates they have a record of the Test, Drivers Number, and so on.
As for computer records, I believe these started at least as long ago as 1975. In your friends case, the DVLA does have a record of the test and say their records indicate a license was never issued. Have you asked DVLA whether this is a definite recording system whereby there is a "positive" or "negative" tag showing that one has or has not been issued?
* Backroomer photos: instructions at
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=10...4
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PS - excuse my American spelling of Licence - just following Fred's use of Americanisms.
*view Backroomer photos and ADD your own at:
groups.msn.com/honestjohn/shoebox.msnw
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a. If you've never been nicked and never rented a car, why would you need it? The old license isn't a photo card.
b. Not entirely amazing. I don't find my line of reasoning out of the realm of possibility. You move, you submit stuff for change of address. If you don't get back a license that you never have cause to dig out, perhaps you don't notice that.
c. Most people are lazy. Most people assume that the authorities have their act in gear.
d. Sure it's possible, but remembering that it was submitted for address change makes the difference here. Had they not done that then sure I would say it was never applied for.
Computer-records-wise.. All that needs to have happened is they didn't set the flag that said "yup, this person applied for a full license". That's pretty easy to miss out. Check the other cases in this thread - did everyone make it up? Or is the DVLA fallible?
As for the Americanisms.. I'm a Brit but have spent the last 4 years in the US. Very astute of you :)
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Sorry, but I like to tell things as I see them and I am just pointing out how the story looks/sounds to me. That is my opinion stated simply to show that there are different perceptions out there. Test it on a jury of 12 - WITHOUT even hearing the DVLA's side - and I feel many would still agree with me.
Sure the DVLA are fallible - but the cases above are referring to chageover from manual to computerised records. Your friend's licence - if it was issued just 20 years ago - would already have been in the computerised system. The coincidence of your friends forgetfulness and the DVLA's error : If I was sitting in my judgement, I would believe the DVLA in this case.
Also, regarding some of the cases above, I am also aware that entitlements to drive certain vehicles shown on earlier licences were to be automaticallly deleted when someone applied for a replacement licence. This is why I have not applied for a replacement licence to remove points from 11 years ago - I want to keep my entitlement to drive all the categories shown thereon rather than losing them on a new licence.
Finally, regarding the licence not being a photo-card. That is immaterial. In the UK, the old style paper licence is asked for and is accepted as a proof of ID. This has been standard procedure now in many finacial transactions - at least for the last 10 years - and even more so in the last 2 years. (Whenever you ask to withdraw cash at a bank/Building-Society counter, you can be asked tp produce your ID amongst which a standard paper licence is an acceptable form).
*view Backroomer photos and ADD your own at:
groups.msn.com/honestjohn/shoebox.msnw
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MB,
The DVLC, as it was then called, installed a new computer system in the early nineties and made a complete dogs breakfast of it which took years to sort out. Even by their own admission a high proportion of vehicle licence records are incorrect. I find it hard to believe that in the case of driver licence records they have found a way of achieving perfection. Freds story is entirely plausable.
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Tom, you don't happen to know where I might find any references to "their own admission" do you? I know it's all a longshot fighting the red tape, but..
The happy part of the story is that the absent license was noted purely by coincidence - not a producer or anything. The situation could've been a lot worse.
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At various times in the past few years the media have quoted something like one in ten records as being inaccurate. I have seen reports where the DVLA have admitted this to be the case, but cannot give a specific instance, I'm afraid.
However, an inaccuracy in an existing vehicles records cannot be denied as it is easily checkable. In your friends case, where all paperwork concerned with his test records from many years ago have long gone, I would put his chances of redress as zero.
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Dont know wether I'm missing something here but I cannot see a real problem. DVLA will have a driver record as DVD states which is based upon the licence holders surname,initials and dob.
The record should show a history of all transactions/updates on that licence.
The record should show that the licence is 'non licence holder' / 'expired provisional' or 'provisional'. In the scenario given it should show 'provisional' and a further entry showing 'records indicate test passed'.If that is the case why if the situation is explained cannot a full licence be issued? Do they need the pass certificate. I dont think there is a time limit on presenting the pass certificate. I do recall that someone with a pass certificate could not supervise a learner driver as they were not the holder of a full licence.
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My belief is that there's a 2 year period after passing the test, during which the full license may be issued.
Yes, the record *should* indicate all the transactions but that relies on people doing their job right, computer records being correct etc.
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Full Chat - I agree with most of what you say above. As I read it, the problem is that the DVLA have records that show that the test was passed but a licence was never applied for or never issued. Whereas Fred's friend is convinced he/she had a licence which disappeared about 10 years ago in the post, or at the DVLA in the process of a change of address.
One party keeps millions of records some of which occasionally can be wrong, the other party apparently keeps few or no records; and is forgetful as to whether important documents have not been returned to them until 10 years later. Make up your own minds who you believe.
*view Backroomer photos and ADD your own at:
groups.msn.com/honestjohn/shoebox.msnw
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Paper part of photo licence is not accepted by Ryanair, I think. They also accept a photo student union card but not a Military ID card! The fares are good even if the service isn't!
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Armitage: Oh yes, for sure in some situations you will be asked for a photo-id card. That has nothing to do with the points made above. In Ryanair's and a few other domestic airlines case (where passengers do not necessarily have a passport with them as they are not required in law for internal flights), the airlines are asking for photo IDs in a format of their choosing for at least two reasons - firstly to confirm that the on-line ticket is being used by the person they sold it to and secondly for "security".
Mark - by all means please delete this post if you feel it needs to be as it is not motoring related.
*view Backroomer photos and ADD your own at:
groups.msn.com/honestjohn/shoebox.msnw
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Update: a full license has been issued with the correct data including original pass date. No re-testing.
Did anyone else read that Cilla Black appears to have been hit by the same thing?
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Hi
Glad to read this message as this has happened to me. It was only when I wished to do voluntary work that I went looking for my licence that I noticed it was out of time to update which I was told when I phoned up for a replacement .
It was updated a month after I passed but no record shows and I am left with a provisional and retest
I am interested in the cilla Black item if you have further info
The only evidence I have is a photocopy of my original pass cert. Luckily I photocopy every original document I send otherwise I fax
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I am interested in the cilla Black item if you have further info
This thread is over 3 yrs old, and several contributors to it haven't been seen in a long time either: but you *might* be lucky.
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The DVLA keep ALL old documents on microfiche because everything is scanned (i.e. all forms we send to them in Swansea including vehicle and license related). So your old form for change of address say 10 years ago.... yep it's there somewhere. I have seen the archive on a tour so there is a system.
Example I was given was someone updated licence and motorcycle cover disappeared in the changover. Not spotted for many years (8 I think so that was back in 2003/2004). Records consulted and motorcycle ability restored. They can find things if true.... so worth querying.
Rob
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Is Fred Bloggs2 available as I need help as to know if they found his original and where they found it.
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From Mr Bloggs's profile:
Date registered: Tue 11 Feb 2003 (195 weeks ago)
Last visited forum: Tue 17 Jun 2003
Number of threads: 1
Number of posts: 12 (av: 0.01/day)
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A Backroomer that escaped ;-)
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Does anyone know how many driver records and vehicle records the DVLA has to process each year?
If they screw up just 0.01% of those, that must still equate to a lot of headaches for drivers!
If i remember rightly, there was a TV programme about the DVLA. Now what was it called? Ah yes! The Twighlight Zone!
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Colin-E
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Is Fred Bloggs2 available ....
as already indicated, not for quite some time now. I can try emailing him for you, if you want? There is no guarantee his email address is still valid though.
DD.
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Compared with Trafico in Spain, the DVLA are models of efficiency!
It routinely takes three months minimum for a replacement paper driving licence with at least FIVE for a plastic photo type. The silly thing is that if they cannot issue the real thing in a month they send a temporary one, as a small typed & stamped card, which says they still have your old licence, to you. (Is this recognised in the UK for car hire and by Plod - is it heck as like).
DUH!
Surely it takes just the same in person hours & postage to send a temporary licence as to produce & send the proper one?
Roger. (Costa del Sol, España)
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