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The youtube video shows the handbrake operation only.
Adjustment looks like it's automatic. It's the mechanism around 10-o-clock on your first photo and 2-o-clock on the second, a rachet system.
What I do is, reset the self adjusters back to their original position. Get someone to GENTLY press the brake pedal with the drum off on one side and watch the piston move out. Push it back and then use something to hold that shoe in position while they GENTLY press the pedal again and make sure the other piston moves freely. Then replace the drum and repeat for the other side.
Note GENTLY! You'll be in trouble if the piston's pumped all the way out.
Brake cylinder pistons get 'sticky'.
Edited by bathtub tom on 17/04/2014 at 00:27
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Many Thanks Tom,
I shall do that tomorrow...
ps sounds like Elvis ;)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sDQw-HtxMA
Cheers
Liam
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As usual Bathtub's on the money, but as well as the slave cyls eventually seizing...oh and do prise the dust cover open at each end of the cyl, if fluid is accumulating inside the dust cover then the slaves cyls are probably on their last legs.
The ratchet adjusters seize after a while too, so freeing that off and getting some brake grease into the pivots wouldn't hurt.
If you decide to replace the slaves only do one side at a time, keep the other side intact cos once you have all the bits out it's a dickens of job to rmember exactly where everything goes.
If you decide to fit new brake linings (no reason i can see), they won't come with new adjusters, you'll have to transfer the adjusters over, be warned the sprung star clips used to tension and hold the adjuster isn't usually in the shoe kit (may find a fitting kit has them if available), at least with aftermarket shoes, it should be IMO cos its too easy to break the blessed thing when trying to prise it off and they are never the same after doing so.
What a treat to have a poster prepared to have a go and take pics too, superb, oh and the reason i'm up and about this time of night is the worlds worse case of man flu so can't sleep..:)
Edited by gordonbennet on 17/04/2014 at 03:34
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By the way, you're supposed to fit a new hub nut on the Pug when you remove it, but if you swap the left and right ones over, the chances are that where you need to 'lock' the edge of the bolt over into the stub axle groove will fall in a new untouched spot.
Now the worlds worse case of man flu since time began, well ok since the last one.
Edited by gordonbennet on 17/04/2014 at 05:50
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Thanks GordonBennett,
Replying with a dreaded case of Man Flu?,
that is going above and beyon the call of duty :)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk5wScFGCjk
Try and stock up on
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkie_%28chocolate_bar%29
:)
I'll look for leaks in the rubber caps,
and then spray brake cleaner everywhere.
I haven't got anyone to press the brakes, atm
.. unless a neighbour passes, so I'll try and come up with a cunning plan....
I may try a screwdriver to see if there's any glaring differences.
..but will do the proper brake fix , as bathtub Tom has detailed.
I was thinking.... (oh dear ;) )
Could it need bleeding? or be low brake fluid?
what I may do , is bring it in to a local garage
and ask them to do a brake test for a fiver
to see how far off the mark the brakes are...
When pressing the brakes they go down softly to about 3/4 of the way.
They do stop, and I have got used to them,
but they are not strong enough for the MOT.
(ps I don't have the values of the efficiency,
as i was in a garage fixing their computer and he did the pre-mot for free, as they had been very quiet for a fortnight!)
Hopefully, I shall know more by the end of the day...
Cheers
Liam
Edited by liammcl on 17/04/2014 at 15:01
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Hi Liam.
brake cleaner is OK, but remember to lubricate the pivots for the adjuster after you've finished spraying cleaner about, and try to drop a bit of lube into the handbrake cable without it finding its way ontop the friction surface area, you'll soon see if the system is working correctly anyway when you press the pedal to check the slaves are moving as our mate Bathtub mentions a strategically placed screwdriver to lever the adjuster tension spring back should see the shoes immediately pulled back in.
Do make sure those adjusters are working, otherwise a good percentage of brake pedal travel is pushing the shoes to somewhere near the drums.
I would say that if the slaves are working free, a good roughing up of the shoes friction material with wire brush, a roughing up of the drum surface with emery and a full system bleed through afterwards will see you with some brakes again.... then before you clean up a quick wire brush of the brake pipes and grease 'em up for good measure.
Then nip up the front and clean and lube the front caliper sliders whilst down and dirty, you'll be bleeding those too so not real extra work whilst your there, grase up front pipes, jobe done.
Stuffing a Munchies Easter egg now (don't taste as good as they used to, but then wagon wheels were much bigger when in i was a kid), plus gallons of tea and sympathy here from my ever faithful SWMBO, soon be right as rain again..:-)
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>>When pressing the brakes they go down softly to about 3/4 of the way.
That's a bit worrying. Have you got the handbrake adjusted too tight? That can stop the self adjusters working. It may be worth slackening it off when you've done everything to make sure the adjusters can do their job.
Alternatively, have you checked the fluid level? You'll have a dual circuit braking system. If it drops dangerously low, then the way the it's configured, one half of your brakes could stop working.
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Thanks Guys,
just a very quick post, as I have just got in & want to have a look for leaking cylinder before the light goes...
My brake fluid was low, and I filled it up and brought to a garage, who tested the brakes (with the warning that he wasn't sure if the rolling roads was working as he hadn't used it for 6 mths)
s103.photobucket.com/user/liammcl_2006/media/Pre-M...l
Here's the results, he googled the weight and declared it would pass the MOT
woohoo ! I thought
s103.photobucket.com/user/liammcl_2006/media/Pre-M...l
However, I didn't notice much difference when braking (there was a bit tho' ?)
so i brought to another garage , who promptly said it would fail the MOT *boo* !
s103.photobucket.com/user/liammcl_2006/media/Pre-M...l
I don't really understand what I should be doing with the adjuster tensioner/lever to be honest... but I shall go forth with spanner in hand :)
Cheers
Liam
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Until you've cleaned up and bled the system through Liam you can more or less ignore those readings, things will improve no end trust me.
OK, those adjusters.
If you get an assistant to press the brake pedal you will see the shoes start to move outwards as the salve cyl expands, as this happens the ratchet effect adjuster will (if working properly) click as it goes over another adjustment point, being a ratchet it locks in each spot, it can move outwards to take up as gear happens but it can't move back in.
You will observe the same effect if you simply lever the shoes outwards as if the brakes were operating, and this is safer and easier to do and you will see the adjusters doing their thing.
This is where the screwdriver comes in, if you look carefully at the ratchet, you will be able to move the pawl out against its own spring to release the ratchet, the shoe return springs will pull the adjuster right back to its start point, you can do this all day long and i would suggest operating the thing a few times, and when you see where it pivots to put a dab of brake grease on those moving parts.
edit...from your original pics on photobucket, top row 4th pic along, the ratchet and pawl are at 10 o'clock, see the gap there between those two chunky bits of metal sticking out from behind the LH shoe, thats then ratchet and pawl, if you lever the lower item down that will relase the ratchet....great pics by the way, wish i could use pbucket as well as you.
OK, so we assume you have the adjuster operating properly, releasing the pawl sees the shoes and the ratchet return to the start of its arc, all good now.
You've cleaned up the shoes and the drums by now, and hoepfully observed with the help of assistant that all 4 pistons, two on each side, move freely...remember to keep the drum on one side whilst you play about with the other, otherwise you could inadvertantly push the pistons out on the side your're not working on...don;t worry if that happens we've all done it i promise.
OK, so all good, all clean and working, time to reasemble and bleed the system, you'll have to bleed the whole system through.
You have no option but to fully bleed the brakes, it sound slike the fluid level has dropped and allowed air to enter the system, even if air hasn't got in this way moisture and air manage to find their way in eventually, and you won;t get a frim pedal till you've got rid of it.
You really do need an assistant for effective bleeding.
How we doing so far?
Edited by gordonbennet on 17/04/2014 at 21:46
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Hmm hang on a mo, its a long time since i did these (and my memory for such things isn't improving and i've got the flu, good alibi that), the adjuster might work better with the parking brake applying the shoes instead of the footbrake, but either way you can duplicate the action by levering the shoes out to prove adjuster operation is working.
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Just got in....
After a mad dash to get some of the last £1 Easter Eggs from Asda !!
The off side back right wheel cylinder is leaking
...probably 5 drops worth when the rubber is pushed back
s103.photobucket.com/user/liammcl_2006/media/Pre-M...7
I didn't see your post Gordon before I ventured out, but tried to see what would move..
The rachet was stuck on, but is now loose with lots of brake cleaner around the place.
i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/Pre-...g
I didn't really understand how it worked but moved the shoes out and back with a screwdriver , in the hope, something would happen..
s103.photobucket.com/user/liammcl_2006/media/Pre-M...4
A quick spray of cleaner on the drum and the brake shoes and all done for that side.
Moving over to the back nearside, the wheel cylinders weren't leaking, this is grease
s103.photobucket.com/user/liammcl_2006/media/Pre-M...3
but the ratchet seemed to be looser on this side.
I had to push the bottom metal bit, (attached to the spring) up to hold it in place.
Again, this was quite solid and took a screwdriver to move it down , initially
After spraying , it would move down by the force of a finger..
All together, got in the car to do the easter egg run !
and the handbrake pulled all the way up to the top with no resistance !!
OMG !!! I thought I'd knack's it !
A few pushes on the pedals and they and the handbrake were back as they were..which hopefully means they reset themselves.
It does seem more solid and grabbier atm....
I will have to wait for an assistant, or try a long ple thru the window onto the brake pedal...
So far so good...
It is a pain to have to pay £5 a gol to get the brakes tested..
(I understand it is taking the mechanics time, and causes him faffing about)
.but worth it, if they are fixed in 5 or so attempts..
I am wondering whether to put it in again, to see...
or start looking at a new wheel cylinder and bleeding...
The front brakes have a 38% difference, so i 'll have to look into them too...
I a off to read your previous posts in detail...thanks again guys
Cheers
Liam
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just wondering...
would a boot full of heavy stuff cause the % braking efficiency to go down?
ie do the rolling roads weigh the car , when the computer works out the percentage braking force?
eg A car which would fail with a heavy boot, could pass when having an empty one?
Cheers
Liam
My peugeout is quite light (Curb weight, 790–880 kg)
... but my boot is crammed full...
*edit*
Maybe not....
"Losing weight to pass a brake test will only work if the station is an ATL (automated test lane) - ordinary brake rollers don't weigh the car - the weight is either supplied bu the computer (VSI) or inputted manually from the kerb weight of the vehicle (VIN plate or supplied info from the presenter) If you have neither of these, efficiency is determined with a decelerometer instead."
Edited by liammcl on 18/04/2014 at 02:55
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Hi Liam, are you still under that car covered in fluid?
Quite obvious by now that the brakes have been neglected a bit, the front brakes either have at least one seizing piston, or the sliding mechanism is seized on one side, so you can be sure the other isn't fairing much better.
From the sounds of the rear slaves, a few drops of fluid inside the dust cover means the piston seal behind it is leaking slightly, by rights that slave cyl should be renewed.
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I reckon both rear cylinders need replacing. The one with fluid under the boot is probably shot and I reckon the other side is too. I doubt if that's grease, more likely fluid and brake dust.
Replacing the cylinders will mean you'll have to bleed the system and once you've got the rears working properly you concentrate on the fronts.
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Thanks Gordon and Tom,
Not much to report today...
I rang Europarts , they don't do the dust cap nor the axle nut for the 3 stud one,
but I have found them on Ebay
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Citroen-Saxo-Rear-Hub-Nuts-Dust...e
With the cylinders, what is a bit annoying , is the Europarts trade counter is different to the online price.. only a bit of a pain, as they are still cheap..
On line they are £10.68 but when I called up, I was quoted £17.50.
(It's not the first time this has happened, that's why I rang to double check)
I had a quick look at the front brakes, concentrating on the front right, which was the weaker of the two, and it was indeed seized.
I banged about a bit with a rubber mallet, while spraying brake cleanerr, and lots of rust fell out. I then used a wire brush and sprayed copper grease around the piston ,
( Today's pictures are with my crappy 2MP phone camera )
s103.photobucket.com/user/liammcl_2006/media/Pre%2...l
when it was in and out, and all seems good now, it is going in and out quite smoothly..
I shall put it back in to the garage to get some more readings (for a fiver)
as i am interested to see if a general bash with a rubber mallet and brake cleaner made much difference..
Dunno if the front pads are too low?...about 3mm
s103.photobucket.com/user/liammcl_2006/media/Pre%2...l
s103.photobucket.com/user/liammcl_2006/media/Pre%2...l
Thanks Tom,
May as well do both, it'll be good experience..
Carpe Diem - Seize the day?
Nope ! Un-carpe Diem !.....
I un-seized the day ....geddit :D
Cheers
Liam
Edited by liammcl on 18/04/2014 at 23:48
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The other thing that is an MOT fail , is a hole in the rubber CV boot..
A bothchit would be this glue.. to cover the hole
www.mikes-diving.co.uk/stormsure-wetsuit-repair-gl...p
A new driveshaft is £25...One of them, or both, are knocking too
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PEUGEOT-106-MK2-1-1-DRIVESHAFT-...c
Not an MOT fail, but I have notcied it getting a bit more "bouncy"
so maybe new springs, or the torsion bar?
With the cars being able to be bought with 12 months MOT,
it does make me wonder if it is worth doing it..
www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/325-cheap-p...4
For me, It definitely is worth repairing bits,
as I am learning lots, and can keep my car on the road with same day diy repairs.
(I need it for my mobile repair work)
Cheers
Liam
Edited by liammcl on 19/04/2014 at 00:13
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I'd replace the disc pads if they're down to 3mm,they're not going to last long. It'll give you the opportunity to push back the caliper pistons and pump them back out. Work them in and out a few times and you'll probably find they're moving much more easily. Do this with the old pads in place, it'll stop you pushing the pistons right out.
Check the thickness of your discs, you may have to replace them if they've worn too thin.
>>With the cars being able to be bought with 12 months MOT,
it does make me wonder if it is worth doing it.
The v5 log book needs to be a applied for, I have misplaced the papers for this car.
That tells me to steer well clear. If it's so easy to obtain a new V5 then why hasn't the seller done so. Could be a 'log book loan' or any number of nefarious scams.
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Bathtub's covered all, and i agree about the missing V5 rubbish.
'''With the cylinders, what is a bit annoying , is the Europarts trade counter is different to the online price.. only a bit of a pain, as they are still cheap..
On line they are £10.68 but when I called up, I was quoted £17.50.
(It's not the first time this has happened, that's why I rang to double check)''
use ''click and collect'' option on their website, you can pay online at the cheaper price and collect from the parts counter if its conveneient for you, or of course take advantage of free delivery.
carparts4less is the same as eurocarparts by the way.
Carry on Liam, its all a learning curve, but these trials and tribulations will stand you in good stead to save many hundreds of pounds over the coming years sorting things like this out instead of paying some fast fit joint £250+ to do the job for you.
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Thank Tom and Gordon, for the heads up about that car !
I must admit these 106's are brilliant cars...cheap as chips and great for a beginner diyer to have a go fixing.
Thanks Gordon.. I had another look, and the one I should've been after was this one, not the £10 one.
www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Peugeot_106_1.1_1997/p/...1
Tbh, I don't know enough about the variants , so i don't mind paying a few quid more, at the trade counter to make sure it is the right one.
having said that, when I tried to swap a valve , they did give me the wrong one, and it was just by luck that I compared it to the old one.
It's a habit I do all the time now !
They gave me the one on the right to replace the middle one !
i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2013...g
This was my attempt...all from Youtube :)
£10 for the belt and £10 for the valve... I didn't bother replacing the gasket etc, as I thought that there would be a cat in hells chance of it working !
It's done 9,500 miles since then, no problems at all !
i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2013...g
I'm reading up about bleed nipples, and they seem to be a weak point !
This guy recommends candle wax
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFUezVaKEeg
I was wondering , if it would be an idea to replace the bleed nipples with a box standard bolt, as it would take more torque before it snapped.
I can see the use of the bleed nipple, if it would let you bleed it with a vacuum attached to the nipple , in situ, without undoing anything
...but if you have to undo it before it drains, I would rather have a solid bolt in there.
I would unscrew it almost all the way out to bleeed ti
Ie it would take a lot more to snap it, than a bleed nipple with its middle hollow.
I have a manual garden jet sprayer, and I am hoping to use the pressure of it,
attached to a diy brake resevoir cap, to pump a bit of pressure into the system.
Tho' thinking about it, I'll probably drain all the existing fluid first, and refil with new, and then bleed the air out.
I am waiting now till the parts come from Ebay...
No mad rush , as the MOT is due in 3 mths.
I think I'll do this next year, put the car in for a pre-MOT check a month or so before,
as it gives time , to read up , watch youtube etc, on how to fix things !
Thanks for the help and advice guys, it is much appreciated that you took the time to reply !
Cheers
Liam
ps If ever you need a settee moving... I'm your man ;)
www.flipping-computers.bugs3.com/sofa.jpg
Edited by liammcl on 19/04/2014 at 19:56
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Liam, you are such a refreshing change, thanks for your posts matey, i'm sure Bathtub Tom is enjoying this too.
Don't whatever you do use bolts to replace proper bleed screws, shakes head and smiles, they won't seal properly as they have no taper seat, the best way to stop them corroding in is to bleed the brakes every couple of years, good policy anyway the system and its seals will last much longer on any car you own.
My way of bleeding with your car would be the two man method, one down at the dirty end doing the opening and closing, the other with the easy job of long steady pumps on the brake pedal.
I simply put a 7 or 8mm (one or t'other i think) ring spanner on the bleed nipple and crack it open, then retighten gently, then fit a 12" or so close fitting clear pipe to the bleed nipple, then crack the bleeder open, 1/3 to1/2 turn is plenty, get assistant to operate the pedal all the way to the floor in steady strokes, say about half a dozen strokes....during the bleeding i wear latex gloves and lightly hold my finger over the end of the pipe to act as a light valve, you can see the air bubbles and any dirty fluid coming down the pipe and into the waste container...never ever re-use fluid, then on the last stroke get the assistant to hold the pedal to the floor whilst you nip the bleed valve tight again.
Obviously keep the master cyl topped up after each cyl has been bled.
I usually start at the furthest point, so NSR and end up at the OSF.
Enjoy Easter.
I can recommend finding one of the best books for the non expert home mechanic ever written IMHO, been out of print for donkeys years, but basic mechanics haven't changed much for many years, a basic braking system like yours for example has been the same for nigh on 50 years...you'll find a used copy for a few quid on the bay of e, well worth the read you can learn quite a lot from it...AA Book of the Car.
Haynes used to be great years ago, but i find them not as good in recent years, but well worth seeing of someone is flogging a used one for your car on the bay too, Saxo/106 same car where it matters.
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Thanks Gordon :)
I have ordered that AA book for 99p !!
Many thanks for that , it looks like a gold mine of info in there.
I am doing a diy brake bleeder,
s103.photobucket.com/user/liammcl_2006/media/Pre-M...l
(I'll wrap some string or a bungie cord round it, to keep a snug fit in the brake fluid resevoir)
I'm looking forward to next week, when the parts come, so I can get in there and have a go.
All the best mate.
Liam
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