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Just one question John, why did you have the transmission fluid changed at 29K miles, is it a Honda service requirement ?
IMO the only way a piece of swarf would enter the box is from the refilling point, I suspect the technician did not pay enough attention to cleanliness when refilling the transmission and caused this problem. If this is the case then the servicing garage is at fault, if this is not the case and the swarf was in the box from manufacture then its a manufacturing fault. either way I'd persue it in court. It is highly reasonable for a customer to expect the gearbox on a car to last more than 29K miles, regardless of warranty.
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It doesn't mean the swarf hasn't come from a bearing or gear which was breaking up. This of course could be from a manufacturing defect.
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Swarf is normally left over from machining and needs to be washed out thoroughly during the manufacturing process.
If something inside the box was breaking up, you'd expect to get fragments of metal.
I could see dirt getting in via the refill port, but swarf? Where would it cme from?
OP, I think they are fobbing you off. Don't let it drag on. Take the initiative, be assertive about what you want. Go to court sooner rather than later. And communicate with th edealer in writing, always. Back up any verbal discussions with written "minutes" (email is good 'cos it is instant and you may be able to get read receipts).
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I could see dirt getting in via the refill port, but swarf? Where would it cme from?
I don't know what type of refill point it is on the Insight but I was thinking that if it's a threaded hole, from the threads.
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I'm another Insight owner (and have seen the OP's post over on an Insight forum)..
Honda's transmission fluid change interval is pretty frequent for CVTs. It's 2 years or 25000 miles, whichever comes first (that's what's programmed into the variable service reminder system). If the car OP's car is an early 2009 it should have had its 2nd transmission fluid change. These cars don't use normal ATF, but a proprietary Honda CVT fluid. The only other CVT failures I've heard of on an Insight were down to lack of maintenance or using the wrong fluid
I've looked up the part costs of several Honda CVT gearbox assemblies. Al in the range of £9-10k, hybrid or not. Nasty if they do go wrong.
Another interesting piece of info is this interview with Honda's chief engineer involved in R&D on the Insight. http://asia.vtec.net/Reviews/2GInsight/index.html
He comes out with this interesting titbit regarding the CVT maintenance:
Besides the use of CVT-F, it was also highlighted that it is crucial to replace the oil once every 20,000km.
20,000 km is roughly 12,500 miles. It's slighty worrying that the maintenance reminder / Honda's service requirement only asks for CVT-F changes half as often as recommended by their own R&D engineers. Still, maybe someone decided that an extra £60-90 (quotes I've had from Honda dealers for CVT-F change) on a typical annual service might put a downer on people buying this car to save money on fuel.
Edited by ear8dmg on 23/07/2013 at 00:47
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I now have the car back, fitted with it's brand new transmission, & to be fair it is running perfectly, which, having parted with over £3000 to be able to drive it again, I would expect nothing less.
However, I have lost confidence in the car and faith in the Honda product, so I am changing the Insight for a new Skoda Octavia, a car I believe will serve me better in many ways.
It's ironic though, (& galling to me !), that Honda have recently topped the reliability charts - wished they'd asked for my opinion !
Having received a response from the Manager, Head of Customer Operations Honda UK, basically informing me that their "fair and generous offer"will not be increased, I'm now at the end of the road and will just "bite the bullet" & move on, thoroughly disappointed with my Honda experience.
My advice to anyone with a CVT gearbox is to ensure you always have a warranty in force - remember, mine expired less than 4 months ago, the renewing of which would have avoided the considerable trauma & expense I suffered.
PS The Service Manager informed me the swarf was from a failed bearing inside the 'box - not my fault , just bad luck !?!
Edited by JKW on 27/07/2013 at 21:26
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Thanks for the update.
I too would have been selling after this experience, a bad response by Honda of all makers.
Poor show Honda, we expected far better from you.
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I now have the car back, fitted with it's brand new transmission, & to be fair it is running perfectly, which, having parted with over £3000 to be able to drive it again, I would expect nothing less.
However, I have lost confidence in the car and faith in the Honda product, so I am changing the Insight for a new Skoda Octavia, a car I believe will serve me better in many ways.
It's ironic though, (& galling to me !), that Honda have recently topped the reliability charts - wished they'd asked for my opinion !
Having received a response from the Manager, Head of Customer Operations Honda UK, basically informing me that their "fair and generous offer"will not be increased, I'm now at the end of the road and will just "bite the bullet" & move on, thoroughly disappointed with my Honda experience.
My advice to anyone with a CVT gearbox is to ensure you always have a warranty in force - remember, mine expired less than 4 months ago, the renewing of which would have avoided the considerable trauma & expense I suffered.
PS The Service Manager informed me the swarf was from a failed bearing inside the 'box - not my fault , just bad luck !?!
UPDATE !! I didn't "bite the bullet" but perservered by writing, e-mailing & phoning every man & his dog at Honda, including Head of Communications Europe. I received 2 letters of rejection, the last one stating "This is our final stance - no more money "), but after enlisting the assistance of a very helpful lady at Honda UK things started to improve for me. Anyway, today I received a call to say a cheque to the full value of my costs for parts and labour (less vat) will be delivered tomorrow by 1st class post !
"If at first you don't succeed "etc, certainly worked for me !
Kind regards, JKW
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Congratulations, that's an excellent result. Well done on persevering in the face of indifference.
But no credit to Honda even though they're finally paying up. They know full well that there's a problem with this gearbox that they've had to acknowledge in other, more consumer-focused markets.
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Well done to the OP! I salute you sir for having a back bone and standing up for yourself.
I wish everyone would do it!
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Honda's UK market is but a pin-prick on their global sales.
A Surrey Honda dealership sales manager told me a few years ago that there's a single Honda dealership in Calfornia that sells more cars than the whole of the UK combined. It's little wonder that we're overlooked when it comes to impacting product manufacturing or design issues.
I suspect Honda UK looked at the total Insight sales figures (low) and the cost of increasing the warranty period, and made a 'manage on a case-by-case' decision.
The UK's small market status is also the reason we get such a thin selection of Honda models and variants. Honda do make some very attractive and exciting cars in Asia and the US, but none ever make it here, just the safe bets.
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This is very heartening, did you get the Skoda ?
I have to admit (and I accept I'm vocal about this), our experience with a then-new Civic FK2 in 07-09 was dire (we traded it in earlier than planned), many niggling suspension problems which were down to poor design and manufacture and the dealership struggled to fix. I simply don't believe the Honda 'reputation' for reliability any more, we swapped back to supposedly awful VAG cars which have been peerlessly reliable so-far. The Civic was the only car I've owned in 25 years which failed to start on our driveway (ECU fault drained the battery)
Edited by idle_chatterer on 12/09/2013 at 01:48
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The Skoda is on order, due in late September / early October (hopefully !). Every write-up I've read on the new Octavia is very positive, so I'm eagerly awaiting it's arrival.
The promised Honda cheque DID arrive today, so I'm a happy chappy now !!
JKW
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How can Honda claim this is anything other than a manufacturing defect?
With an automatic/CVT box the potential to 'abuse' the gearbox is next to none, not like a manual!
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