Sounds like the fuel is from a company called Greenenergy, which Tesco owns a large stake in.
I was reading about this company the other day, they are resposible for a lot of rainforest deforestation abroad, as they burn them down and plant palm trees and sugar cane which they then ship over here to make these 'green' fuel extenders.
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I was listening to an interview on Radio 4 this evening, a chap said his partners Clio started spluttering earlier on the week, he previously filled it with Shell & tesco, then the car ran funny & conked out.
The car needed a new oxygen sensor, will said can be caused by poor fuelling or some other mechanical fault which was ruled out.
--
Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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To quote Greenergy the supplier in question:
"The company said its "extensive" tests on the batch of fuel showed that it met industry standards but it was continuing its investigation. "
So it might contain bioethanol then since petrol can contain 5% ethanol and still be called petrol... and allowed to do so but needs to be described as such because not all cars, even recent ones, can use it.
If this turns out to be an own goal in terms of bio fuels then .. well.
I will add that my TDCi Ford is not running right either.... diesel though and refilled at an extremely large supermarket in Slough last week..... hmmmm.
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'green' fuel extenders.
At last ~ some who puts "green" in inverted commas when they're not referring to the colour.
--
L\'escargot.
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Much discussion in the news/papers this morning, trading standards saying in the event of a claim you will have to produce a receipt , how many of us keep receipts unless you claim for tax, or expenses reasons. So will the bank/credit card statement be enough proof, or if you paid by credit card do they have any liability. What do you think.
Richard Price
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Anyone who uses a credit card or Tesco Clubcard or similar to pay for their fuel will have that as some proof surely.
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You would still have to prove that it was their duff fuel that caused the problem. At the moment the suppliers are not admitting there is any problem.................. of course they would say that would n't they?
_______
IanS
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The way to do this is to take a sample of the fuel in the vehicle.
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Other than Tesco & Morrisons, are all pumps safe?
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Other than Tesco & Morrisons, are all pumps safe?
On ITN news last night Quentin Wilson said that BP ultimate was ok to use.
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In late 1950s Malaysia, it was said that retailers were mixing (untaxed) kerosine with their petrol but charging, of course, the full rate. It was said at the time that this type of contamination was extrememly difficult to detect. However, humidity and service standards were such that cars never went very well anyway but maybe there is another excise fraud at the bottom of the present case.
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At the moment the suppliers are not admitting there is any problem.................. of course they would say that would n't they?
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They're still selling fuel, which would be madness if they had any doubt whatsoever.
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Tend to agree - would be grossly negligent of they continued selling what could be contaminated fuel.
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Glad I've got a simple French common rail turbo diesel and not one of those complicated petrol powered thingies with all those sensors and pumps and stuff that are so susceptible to misfuelling...............
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if you paid by credit card do they have any liability. What do you think
Liability of CC Companies is for purchases over £100 - does you tank hold 110 litres?.
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What would affect so many oxygen sensors, unless through carbonisation? If it is the oxygen sensor! A site, www.picotech.com/auto/lambda_sensor.html seems to indicate that the life expectancy is 30,000 miles, but apparent symptoms may be due to other issues like misfire . Note the bit about carbonisation and short journeys: housewives cars!
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We've been hit by this problem and have just had the oxygen sensor replaced in our car. The problem is that it's now stuck in the garage with 30 litres of this fuel in its tank. The garage say they can pump it out but can't dispose of it due to strict regulations - so the ball is in our court on bringing cans to put it in! Is this really right? Are there garages that will pump it out and dispose of it themselves? Thanks for any advice.
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Just out of interest, does anyone know if some makes are more affected than others?
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Are there garages that will pump it out and dispose of it themselves?
Garages have tanks for waste oil, hydraulic fluid and such and would probably help. They have to pay to have it removed, even though it is processed and ends up as "new" cheapo oil.
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The problem is that it's now stuck in the garage with 30 litres of this fuel in its tank. The garage say they can pump it out but can't dispose of it due to strict regulations so the ball is in our court on bringing cans to put it in! Is this really right? Are there garages that will pump it out and dispose of it themselves?
>>
A previous thread listed the HSE requirements for dealing with petrol. Not an easy process.
But the advice from an "expert" on the BBC happily recommended "removing" the fuel from your tank.
How and by whom?
I guess any drained petrol would be OK in older vehicles but just try and convince anyone to accept it.
At least the story is changing from " there is nothing wrong with this petrol" and other tests are being made.
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>>What would affect so many oxygen sensors, unless through carbonisation? If it is the oxygen sensor! A site, www.picotech.com/auto/lambda_sensor.html seems to indicate that the life expectancy is 30,000 miles, but apparent symptoms may be due to other issues like misfire .
This paragraph from the link might give a good explanation of what is happening. Very interesting link nortones2 that everyone should read - I learnt a lot about lambda sensors.
Everybody knows that spark plugs have to be replaced periodically to maintain peak engine performance, but many people don't realise the same goes for oxygen sensors. As long the lambda sensor is working properly, there's no reason to replace it. But after 30,000 to 50,000 miles of being constantly bathed in hot exhaust gas, a build up of deposits on the sensor tip can make it sluggish. If there's enough clinker on the sensor tip, the sensor may produce little or no voltage at all. This produces a false "lean" signal that makes the computer think the engine needs more fuel, which it doesn't but gets anyway. This creates a rich fuel condition that kills fuel economy and sends carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions soaring. The engine may also experience additional drivability problems such as surging or hesitation.
Is it possible that the above has happened and then mass hysteria has exploded the problem into a fuel scare? It would be very interesting to know if it is only modern engines that are affected or whether older ones (over 7 years) are failing as well.
--
Roger
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
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I'm looking to interview people who've been affected by the fuel crisis for a women's magazine - if you can help at all or want more info, please PM me. Thanks.
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What I find surprising is that the sensor failed within a matter of weeks - if something is contaminating it then it must be pretty potent.
Any ideas?
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I thought the failures were occuring within hours or days - I don't think weeks has come into it.
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I know nothing about the situation, but I'm prepared to bet that hysteria, coincidence and sensationalism are the true culprits.
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If you don't know anything about the situation AND are prepared to bet I'll give it a try! What is the bet and what is the amount? If I win I will give the money to a charity (3rd World Kids or similar)
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Ok.
I'll pay a tenner to either a kids charity or a cancer charity if it turns out that there is actually something wrong with the fuel.
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And if there is nothing wrong with the fuel I pay? I'll stake £10 that there will be a fault which is fuel related rather than car related. As it is for charity I hope the mods will permit this within the forum?
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I'm offering better odds than Mark. If there's something wrong with the petrol, I'll donate £10 to a children's charity. If there's nothing wrong with the petrol, then you donate £5.
Anybody else wish to throw their money away?
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6407447.stm suggests to me mass hysteria. How can cars in Dundee be affected - it's supposed to be a refinery problem, for goodness sake? It also shows highest concentrations of problems in areas where population or population movement are highest - M6, M1, London, Manchester.
Assume there are 20 million cars in Britain, and these cars do 10k miles per annum on average. The BBC website suggests that the lifespan of an oxygen sensor is 30- 50k miles. Assuming that we all adopt a similar servicing regime to Mark's, a car will get a new sensor every 8 years on average. Assume half of all cars are too antiquated to have these sensors in the first place. So we have a national requirement for 1.25 million new sensors annually - 25,000 per week. No wonder the BBC can find 3,500 that have failed in the last week.
I'm going to pretend to be a bored journalist. I'm going to start a new scare about using salt on the roads. My front tyres are due for replacement, and I think they've worn down additionally this winter. The salt on the roads must have caused undue wear. Would anybody else who has replaced tyres on his car recently, and who thinks that they should have lasted longer, please send me a PM. Bah!
Anybody up for taking that tenner off me?
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As it is for charity, I'll have a bet with Mapmaker and Mark. I think it is fuel related and will pay out if it isn't. Is DD the stakeholder and adjudicator on this?
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I know nothing about the situation, but I'm prepared to bet that hysteria, coincidence and sensationalism are the true culprits.
I wouldn't mind a bit of the action.
--
L\'escargot.
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I know nothing about the situation, but I'm prepared to bet that hysteria, coincidence and sensationalism are the true culprits.
If you think that - then you really do know nothing of the situation.
Small independant garages were posting about floods of sensors suddenly failing [27 in one case] on various trade forums well before this reached the public consciousness, or the BBC got involved. Hysteria isn't normally a valid reason for what is genuine sensor failure.
The engines that seem most affected are ones with sensors mounted high in the manifold near the exhaust ports. Once dead they seem to stay dead; giving a constant rich reading - often around 6-700mv. Obviously, the cars can't be used in that condition; it would risk cat damage.
There may be nothing legally wrong with the fuel. There was nothing legally wrong with Formula Shell - that didn't stop it being withdrawn for causing Vauxhalls to eat their valves.
Supermarket fuels are usually very light on additives - particularly detergent. It would reasonably follow that regular users might have quite a build-up of fuel deposit on their tanks, lines and filters. Suddenly adding a lot of, or a different, detergent additive to such cars might release this contamination in a single pulse and destroy vulnerable sensors..... [Only my theory...]
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>>If you think that - then you really do know nothing of the situation.
So, me saying I know nothing about the situation wasn't enough of a clue for you ?
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Until recently I was using Shell V Power (which according to HJ's FAQ's contains bioethanol). Every hundred miles or so the engine warning light came on and the engine cut out. I reverted to using standard unleaded and the problem has disappeared. Prior to using V power I filled with Optimax and never had a problem.
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The last time my Mondeo was in for some work (leaking common rail injection system), the senior engineer and I got chatting. He said they get lots of cars in for repair work due to the use of biofuels. Did not go into figure but I know my TDCi manual says do not use biodiesel.
So could this all be because there is fuel out there with bioethanol/biodiesel in it that many modern cars cannot tolerate? I know there is a government backed move to more biofuel use but the pump surely needs labelling so people know that it is a biofuel? Or is this 5% biofuel ratio low enough for it to be considered to be normal fuel?
I see on the news that the company providing the fuel down south admits it contained bioethanol. But surely it should be down to an individual to decide if they should be putting bioethanol in their petrol cars and not supermarkets hiding this information from them?
Can any backroomers comment on biofuels in our cars? Should they all run okay?
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I'm looking to interview people who've been affected by the fuel crisis for a women's magazine - if you can help at all or want more info, please PM me. Thanks.
I'm now having councelling, having seen the news reports. Does that count?
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I'm looking to interview people who've been affected by the fuel crisis for a women's magazine - if you can help at all or want more info, please PM me. Thanks.
I haven't been affected nor do I want to be interviewed but those who have and do, won't be able to "PM" you if you don't give your details; your profile is "hidden"
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BBC 1300 news had an item from a dealership in South London which has run out of parking space for 'dead' cars that have been brought in. French make and not PSA but I am sure all petrol makes are affected to some degree.
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The folks who I bought my Omega replacement sensor from a while back (due to the heater element failing on the old one) also have a noddy guide to lambda sensors:-
www.gendan.co.uk/article_11.html
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alll cars with oxygen sensors should be off the road until they have been checked and certified by an mot centre , if they are not running properly ie emmisions then they are a hazard to the planet
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yes indeedy, all petrol powered car in the s/east of england should be taken off the road NOW, its a scandal.
PLus that leaves room for me and my fellow diesel drivers...............
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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So what is going wrong?
There has been a spate of failures well above the mean norm, older less sophisticated vehicles suffer less or not at all.
ALL vehicles effected have been reported to have fueled at supermarket sites supplied by ONE distributor.
Some makes are more effected perhaps due to the tolerance of the specific oxygen sensor fitted.
The evidence is still circumstantial until a fuel sample tests positive for a contaminant however I am with AS, I will pay a tenner to charity if it turns out that there is not something wrong with the fuel.
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If it is mass hysteria, why are there so many cars parked up at garages awaiting repair? I think we should be told.
I reckon that the bird flu virus has mutated into car flu.
_______
IanS
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Cheddar, just look at this map.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6407447.stm
Petrol from Penzance, Belfast and Dundee has apparently been affected.
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Cheddar, just look at this map. Petrol from Penzance, Belfast and Dundee has apparently been affected.
I guess, one or two cars in Penzance, perhaps two or three in Dundee etc, they are either misguided or blaggers, though there are literally thousands effected in the southeast.
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in response to the bets being made:
i bet that this is all due
1. either to global warming (a. which is why the bioethanol is being used and b.because it is affecting the warmer parts of the country that "suffered" the warmest winter on record)
2. and/or it is a plot to make us use more saudi arabian oil.
if it is 1., then we can blame al gore, former us-vice-president and china.
if it is 2., then we can blame al qaeda and george bush and tony blair (because they want to divert source of supplies from saudi to oil from iraq. )
it it is none of the these, then it is all to do with the express newspaper and the secret service causing the death of a princess in paris. not forgetting the fake moon landing.
p.s. isn't the bioethanol petrol supposed to be the cause of all this sold by just two retailers in their 99 octane super-unleaded brand? if so, it was a fate well deserving of all those mugs who paid for the 99 octane when 95 will do just as well.
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I understand the fuel supplier involved is at least partially owned by one of the supermarkets concerned which may have a bearing on the matter. I refute any inference that ownership of the problem would be easier if it was a third party supplier.
madf
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You called to me in your hour of need my Son?
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Up here in N.Wales we're taking no chances - the authorities have advised people to stay indoors unless their
journeys are absolutely necessary. The schools, of course, have all closed until further notice. I myself (along with many
of my concerned neighbours) have emptied all fuel from our vehicles & taken extra security measures in case of 'rogue'
elements . We've been told it may be a while until things return to some sort of normality - just a minute, what was tha.....-
Is there anybody out there? heLLO, HELLOOO?
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I blame deleted, Avoid the place, they will wreck your car,
The petrol that comes out of the pumps at 18:30 tonight is specially bad, really terrible stuff, keep well away.,
Thats 18:30 tonight. remember
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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this is your last warning:
30minutes to zero.
Phil I
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