Hi Gents.
I am here looking for some help with a BIG problem that I have with my Jaguar. Its a long story.
I used to own from new a petrol engine X-type. It was very unreliable and I had problems with the automatic gearbox and the heater unit. The last straw was when the power steering broke. The dealers said that there were quite a lot of problems with that model so they gave me what they called a preferential trade in on a diesel X-type with manual gearbox. It was 2 years old at the time and recorded 30000 miles. That was a year ago.
Three weeks ago, with the car just out of the guarantee, it would not start in the morning. It was put on a trailer and taken to the dealer.
They have changed some parts (injectors?? and other things). Last Friday I called them and they said that everything was working OK (the fuel was OK and the injectors were working) but it still doesn't start. And they don't know why. They said they were going to call the technical department at Jaguar.
I called again this morning and the car is still not fixed and will not start. So far the bill is up to about £1000. Now they are saying they may have to replace the computer?. This is a lot more expense.
Because of where I live, and being on my own with the kids, I am having to hire a car. Its getting really expensive.
Can I claim a hire car from the dealer? Shouldn't they fix the car in a reasonable length of time? They have had it about three weeks.
I feel that as a female customer they are messing me about and not taking the job seriously. I would take the car away from them if I could, but it is a non runner. What are my rights in this situation?
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in my opinion you need to get hold of a good independent Jaguar specialist or even a general diesel specialist, because a main dealer charges a fortune
i'm not technically trained by any stretch of the imagination, but that's what i'd do.. (and we own two Jaguars... an older petrol one and a 3 yr old diesel X Type, that is just out of warranty).
I can definitely vouch for an Independent if you're anywhere near North London/
Herts/Essex, but other than that have a look in Jaguar World Monthly magazine where there are loads of adverts every month.
there's been plenty of comment on this site re diesel problems with various cars and the general consensus has been that a specialist might well know quite easily what the problem is, whereas the main dealer may or may not... my independent is spot on and having had some problems with the petrol S Type recently, they've found it and rectified it immediately with no hassle whatsoever (examples: fly by wire throttle sensor, heater control valve, split header tank).
Good Luck
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Not sure I have a definitive answer, but maybe some things to focus on:
- Ring (or see website www.consumerdirect.gov.uk) govt. consumer helpline - they're good on advice , it's free & you'll be armed with your consumer law position.
- Try to establish with them whether the replacement of the injectors was necessary - the 'fix' didn't work so I'd suggest there's a strong case for not paying for this - suggest this to service manager and phone Jaguar technical contact number - establish asap this proviso & query on the cost so far.
- Keep a record of their works & comments, i.e., they changed some parts & then said everything was 'OK', but car still doesn't start etc. (dates & times)
- I doubt you can claim on hire car expenses, but I see no reason you can't ask for a loan car , again query with service manager & Jaguar themselves about policy on this - does the dealer post any service guarantees (re loan cars etc.) on its stationery or website?
- Yes you can take the car away at any time. The result might be then that you've still got their bill to pay & still have to find an independent (or other franchise) dealer to take the job 'half-done' - that might cause a problem in itself & another dealer might be slightly reluctant to take it on - the original dealer can also attempt to absolve themselves if you do this too.
- You bought the car from them (with presumably a Jaguar used car warranty) so pursue this point with the dealer & query Jaguar on 'goodwill' repair.
This does sound like a rock/hard place situation, but if you clarify/resolve the above, it may put you in a better & less vulnerable position.
Best of luck.
Edited by woodbines on 02/05/2008 at 13:00
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Thanks for the responses. I have been back on the telephone to the dealer.
I have asked for a loan car but they ssay that they would only provide a loan if the car was under warranty, and then it is not automatic that the customer gets one, since it is out of warranty there is no chance.
The current repair cost stands at £1340!! They are telling me that some of the injectors definitely needed repairing. I think they have replaced two. They also replaced another part, a flow valve I think. The service manager said that replacing these parts normally fixes the fault, but not in my case, so further repair is needed.
I called Jaguar customer helpline earlier this week but they informed me that since the car is out of warranty any repairs are down to my contract with the dealer.
I am located in the West Midlands. I called a Jaguar repair specialist and he told me that he does not deal with diesel engine repairs and that the dealer is the best place to fix my particular engine.
Edited by Webmaster on 02/05/2008 at 20:57
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....replacing these parts normally fixes the fault...!!
For pity's sake!!
In any sane organisation, that sentence alone should be enough to lose them their franchise. They are clearly incompetent to carry out the tasks reasonably expected of a dealership.
Worse; they seem to think that revealing this complacent thievery of their customer's money is perfectly acceptable!
As they have nobody competent to diagnose the car's real problem; then they are just going to keep throwing expensive parts at it until, by sheer luck, they hit the right one.
Diagnosing why a CR car won't start is one of the easier tasks; "is there compression, adequate fuel pressure and are the injectors being fired" - not rocket science.
As they've replaced perfectly good injectors and the inlet metering valve[?] then it looks as though they haven't got enough fuel-rail pressure - but don't know why because they don't understand how the system works.
Their ignorance is their problem. Forget patchy CAB's and useless Trading Standards; get a hot-shot solicitor - urgently.
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This is the sort of place that may be helpful if you call and ask them to recommend a specialist in your area:
www.uniteddiesel.co.uk/contact-united-diesel.php
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I think the problem is with the dealer - not the car.
I would agree completely with Screwloose and get yourself a solicitor. Do you have legal cover on your insurance, or are you a member of a motoring organisation? - they may help you find a solicitor.
Your first Jaguar was faulty - and they just said they had a lot of similar problems.
Maybe - but did other Jaguar dealers have gearbox problems etc also ?
To treat you like this with the car 3 weeks out of warranty is unforgiveable - especially if you have used them for all servicing work on this car. The response from Jaguar is very poor also.
Tell them you want all parts keeping. You may want them inspected.
When you get the car back, I would recommend finding a different Jaguar dealer - or move to a brand that treats you better. Consider a 3rd party warranty also.
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If it were my car, I would be following the advice above, going to a solicitor, maybe with one last letter to Jaguar customer services giving them a chance to put it right, or at least making it known in writing that you are not satisfied with their response, or the dealer's action, and you will be pursuing the matter.
If the warranty has only just expired, and given the fact you remained loyal to the brand despite a bad experience with your previous car, it is reasonable to expect them to help you. Much of the Sale of Goods Act relies on interpretations of what is "reasonable", and I can't see you'd have too much trouble here if it went legal.
Nobody should be expected to pay for unnecessary work, let alone £1300 worth of it (companies end up on programmes like Rogue Traders for fleecing people out of far less than that).
The fact that the dealer has neither the expertise or training to correctly diagnose and repair the fault on your car is regrettable, but it is not your problem.
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Nobody should be expected to pay for unnecessary work let alone £1300 worth of it (companies end up on programmes like Rogue Traders for fleecing people out of far less than that). The fact that the dealer has neither the expertise or training to correctly diagnose and repair the fault on your car is regrettable but it is not your problem.
Are some people jumping the gun a bit here? We don't know that the work done so far was not necessary. There could be multiple faults (e.g. alternator voltage reg failed and spiked the whole system?). Its not impossible.
Is this the same as the Ford TDCI engine?
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Is this the same as the Ford TDCI engine?
Almost identical bar some of the peripheral bits, as I understand it, which is why the faults described here, and the apparent tendency of the dealer to run up a four-figure bill without actually fixing the problem, sound eerily similar to most of the "my Mondeo TDCi is playing up" threads over in Technical.
Related point - where is Cheddar these days?
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Maggiedawes
I had all of the injectors replaced on my x-type 2.0d in April (just out of warranty) due to a hot starting problem. Dealer (Guy Salmon Oxford) tried to re-flash the computer software but when this didn't work all injectors were replaced FOC.
If the car had just come out of the Manufacturers warranty when the fault was reported then i reckon that you should be badgering Jaguar Cust Services. There are known faults with injectors in particular where they wear prematurely and the software cannot make the necessary adjustments to keep the car starting and running correctly.
I have heard of other instances where serious work has been done to x-type fuel systems weeks out of manuf warranty. See x-type section of jag owners forum site. Lady in Milton Keynes was given free loan car whilst car repaired out of warranty FOC.
A good dealer can help. GS Oxford were excellent. Others aint!
Let us know how things go.
Billy
Edited by billythechid on 03/05/2008 at 10:52
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one bill on my ford TDCi was £2000 it was in the ford dealers 5 weeks and the week after I got it back it refused to start again for the same reason
as for this guy (jag man) the dealer replaced part after part after part to no avail
ford delaers and above all ford customer relations dept were rubish
Just dont go near a Ford diel engine whatever car its in
good News is TATA have bought jaguar
Id rather have a TATA than a Ford
Id like to say TA TA to all fords
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Poor old Ford; such a pity they couldn't resist fitting a cheap fuel system.
Maybe we should send them some flowers - delphi-niums would do.
659.
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Poor old Ford; such a pity they couldn't resist fitting a cheap fuel system.
They call it Progress these days!
MD
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I got the car back this morning and it now runs properly. The bill was just over £2000 including VAT. I love the way the service man lets the figures roll off his tongue, as if you are buying four pork chops in a butchers. They are completely unembarassed by the sums of money that they charge.
The dealer is quite adamant that they needed to change all these parts and have offered me the option of taking the old parts so that they can be independently inspected. They are a large dealer and have a master technician who was trained by Jaguar to work on diesel engines and he repaired my car.
I don't need to say that I am very disappointed with Jaguar engines. This is the second Jaguar in a row that I have had significant problems with. The first one had lots of problems with the automatic and the dashboard electricals. Having splashed out so much money on the car I need to keep it a few more years to get my VFM out of it. Keep everything crossed for me!
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Have you written to Jaguar?
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8< SNIP! comments removed
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 08/05/2008 at 19:43
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makentak - I don't have any free time to argue properly, but I just want to say to the original poster that I vehemently disagree with everything he just said. Everyone else, please assume that we held a considered and well-reasoned argument which I won. ;-)
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Yup. Gratuitously abrasive.
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"And you're happy to demonstrate your lack of knowledge-or even commonsense- here on a motorist's forum."
makentak,
Considering your other post is asking for advice where *you* seem to lack knowledge, I would have thought you would have kept your head down.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?m=435405...e
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actually Makentac, On reflection If this were my Forum I would boot you off it due to the way you wrote to one of the few female members. Knowledge doesn`t give any priority on the Forum IMHO, but friendliness and sociability goes a long way in making it a pleasant place to spend time.
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makentak
The only part of your drivel correct is when you state " you're driving a complicated, expensive piece of kit" irrespective of whether you have no knowlwdge or a time serve diesel fitter I would expect the customer to be treated better by Jag.... this is a premium product with prices to match it should be over engineered not subject to being poor build with poor back up... this is how Alfa Romeo ended up some years back.
To the lady ..... I would write to Jaguar UK point 1) reliablity, previous ownership, kept faith with brand how you don't expect this of a premium car and I would hope to recive a good will payment of some sort .
rememeber nothing ventured nothing gained.
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Oilrag and Paul, Well said. I have said this before and I say it again this is why people visit this site and never return due to back roomers like makentak. You should be ashamed (yes I could use a lot stronger words) there is no need to take that tone as maggiedavies is only looking for advice. Not to be ridiculed. I would also ban you.
Edited by bhoy wonder on 08/05/2008 at 19:10
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I agree with the comments above. I enjoy this Forum and one of the reasons I do so is because it is generally civilised and you can learn a lot. I know next to nothing about the mechanics of cars and enjoy it when other far more knowledgeable than I explain things.
I hope Maggie can ignore the fool above and take something useful from the advice given.
back to the subject matter...my wife and i both run Jags. Hers is a 3 yr old 2.0 diesel and touch wood there's been very little wrong with it, certainly nothing more than minor niggles. Mine, a petrol is now 9 yrs old and has just begun to be costly for things like door locks, throttle sensor etc...however i had at least 4 years with absolutely nothing wrong at all and another 2 years before that with only a couple of niggly things, so Jags can be quite reliable. If you look at the customer appreciation surveys or things like JD Power reliability surveys Jags do reasonably well.
Jag dealers should be quite good, the ones i've used have been (apart from a local rude and surly parts man) although it might not hurt to go in with someone with some form of mechanical knowledge or general knowledge about cars, if your local one is fobbing you off. Hope everything now goes well.
Edited by Westpig on 08/05/2008 at 19:26
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Makentak,
I think you could count on the fingers of one of your rather ignorant hands the number of people qualified to argue the toss on technical matters with their dealer.
We are all mugs in that respect, and I bet the Jag dealer would have charged me or thee just the same as they did the OP.
Maggiedawes,
A £2k repair on a three-year-old car is a bit unusual, so as others have said, it must be worth trying to get a bit of goodwill out of Jaguar.
Good luck with that.
Oh, and look on the bright side, you're still driving a nicer car than most of us.
Edited by ifithelps on 08/05/2008 at 19:44
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makentak has left the building - so has his less than helpful post.
DD.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 08/05/2008 at 19:52
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Having splashed out so much money on the car I need to keep it a few more years to get my VFM
Don't be a victim of sunken cost fallacy! There is no guarantee that nothing will go wrong again. Sell it before it becomes too much burden and get a cheaper & more reliable car.
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How far is car out of makers warranty? Or was it purchased thru Jaguar Approved?
Either way it is very disapointing that some good will hasn't been offered. My x-type 2.0d is in the dealer (Guy Salmon) today having the airon fixed FOC. The warranty (makers) ran out end of March. Dealer secured 100% goodwill......lucky for me!
Dealer has been top notch!
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Interesting comments on here. First point I'd make is that Jaguar are now number 1 in a lot of surveys so many are obviously very happy.
Second point is that some CR diesels are generating these sort of bills & they aren't necessarily very old. My Alfa was 4 years old when it went through this sort of saga, Alfa struggled Bosch couldn't fix it (it's a Bosch designed & manufactured system, nowt to do with Alfa) in the end it was a chance conversation with the chief tech at the dealers with another tech on a training course that found the problem. It was off the road for 3 weeks & they tried countless swaps, luckily swapping bits from the service managers car & not charging me for them. It was eventually diagnosed as a HP pump failure cost £690+VAT plus fitting, total around £1,000! True cost if I'd have paid for the substituted parts would have been at least twice that.
These cars are very complicated, even the designers & manufacturers struggle to fix them & once they get older they'll get written off not fixed. I might add that this car had been serviced on the nail, regardless of cost by a very good dealer.
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Maybe I've missed the point, but was this a Jaguar specialist dealer? I can't follow what warranty has to do with a loan car. Most dealers will put you in something if they have it available. And they usually do.
Nor do I understand the Jaguar response that it's between you and the dealer as it's out of warranty. Everyone knows there is such a thing as goodwill. Most dealers will try on your behalf if you're an ok customer, and this firm has sold you two cars. If the dealer won't try, go back to Jaguar again yourself. It's worth a try even if they only give you a credit you could use at a Jaguar franchise.
Good luck.
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Sorry I've come into this late in the day after his post was deleted; what was makentak's point?
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He was insufferably rude and patronising because the OP is a woman. What he said was unjustified by her post too. A bullying type, perhaps under the impression that this is a virtual forum inhabited by virtual human beings, not real ones.
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Very odd. He's been banned now.
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makentak didn't actually make a point. He was just plain abusive, and just showed himself in a less than flattering light.
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