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Can imagine the damage metal swarf would cause when forced through an injector at 30,000 psi.
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Is this the original Ford MC directive? We have the same problem as everyone else. I would like to know if you have an original number i.e. their's for the directive. I used to work for them and have visited Parts Recall so know how they work!!!! If you don't know the number do you know where or if (?) I can access this on their site, or anywher else. Or any other info. We are desperate now, the car is a taxi, no work, no pay, big garage bills etc. Anyone with any ideals or wanting to join me in a crusade to get what we deserve please get in touch. I am not willing to let this go.
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hi,
the garage may be trying to save you money but I always understood that all injectors should be changed if one is suspected as faulty. If the fault does come back at least that element can be eliminated as the problem cause.
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My mondeo is with Ford as we speak. I have told them that I am aware of the problems with the pump etc. I was told today that one of the injectors needed retuning and that they had checked the filter to be sure it was a 2 micron type. he said there was no sign of metal and that the car was now ok. This was a new filter in September so it may not mean much. We'll see!
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">he said there was no sign of metal and that the car was now ok<"
Good news. Ask for the comments in writing, keep all future fuel bills with mileage noted to demonstrate that only the finest diesel has sloshed through the system Ok, so that's a bit simplistic, but it might strengthen your case at a later date if required.
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I have a letter from Ford saying that they knew of no problems with the injectors etc. I wrote to them when a friend of mine had to have a new set costing 1500 pounds. I now have a copy of the service bulletin which i intend to present to them as it is dated before I bought my Mondeo. Apart from these problems it is a great car to drive, much better than the Avensis I had to hire while mine was in dock
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My Mondeo is now in a dealership with misfiring, which has been diagnosed as two faulty injectors. However, the garage already seem to trying to escape from their warranty obligations stating that the fuel filter seems brand new - it was replaced ~10K miles ago, in the Autum. Given the problems faced by other on this forum, is there a definitive statement that is going to stop my dealer from going down the route of denial of service?
Does anyone have the seemingly incriminating 'TSB' from Ford in which they allegedly recognised the fault?
Any suggestions to save a long term debate with the dealership and Ford would be great.
Thanks
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my 2ltr mondeo tdci cuts out when you apply the accellarator for more power, usually in 4 or 5th gear, normally when you are passing out another car. Its extremly dangerous.
The car is 3 months out of warranty, 80,000 miles, missing 1 service history.
I have written 3 times to ford who have ignored me. I've taken the car in to have it looked at, which I was charged 100 for the experience. They then told me it would cost 1000 pounds for 2 new injector pumps, 1 oil seal and cable.
To me this seems very unfair as the Mondeo 2 Ltr TDCI Injector seems to be a common manufacturing problem, is there any thing I can do to have this fixed without cost to me?
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Not much help now , but read this site before buying any car, I did, and bought a 2l petrol Mondy. So far , no probs.
Look for cars with probs, then avoid- Ford TDCI seem to figure big time, can't all be poor servicing, can it?
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">is there any thing I can do to have this fixed without cost to me?<"
Change down to third or even second and then overtake like a proper driver, all this tomfoolery in the higher gears is the root cause of TDCi problems IMHO.
So, kaiser, tell me, how did you find this website?
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found the website using google, this website content is excellent especially this thread and peoples comments.
I normally agree about changing down a gear, however sometimes when you are crusing along in a dual carriage and simply passing out a car doing 50, then ideally you should not have to change down to third or lower.
apart from that, its still quiet dangerous, to have your car cut out when driving along... ford should accept their responsibility for this design fault, it could cause an accident.
I have decided to get the car fixed by ford, are there any other design faults, I read about people replacing the tdci fuel system.
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>> out a car doing 50, then ideally you should not have to change down to third or lower.
Agreed, the TDCi is very torquey and it is simply not neccessary to change down under such circumstances.
You said before "The car is 3 months out of warranty, 80,000 miles, missing 1 service history", the warranty is until 60,000 miles however if the car is only three months over three years old you may have been lucky re goodwill if not for that missing service. i have found Ford and the local dealer excellent in that regard.
You also say "I have written 3 times to Ford who have ignored me", who to? where to? I recieved excellent service and had an attentive person assigned to my case when I wrote, at the time their CC was in Glasgow, it has moved recently and that they have had some contract staff involved who have been less than ideal, it perhaps should improve. I would write to:
The Customer Services Director
Ford Customer Relationship Centre
PO Box 4430
Coventry
CV3 9BH
Some dealers are better than others, "2 new injector pumps, 1 oil seal and cable." sounds strange, perhaps they mean two injectors, though the injectors can need reprogramming, has this been tried? should only csot about £50, mine needed one doing at around 70,000 miles, now on 115,000 and all fine - touch wood!
You say that this seems to be a common problem however in the scheme of things bearing in mind the shear number of Mondeos and also X-Types and Transits that use the same engines and / or fuel systems and the fact that they do above averaage mileages the number of problems are no worse than average.
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Cheers for that.
When I wrote to them, it was an email threw the contact us on the website, sorry for the confusion. I will try your tact of the above address.
I have just come back from the garage with a list and cost
2 new injectors, 1 injector no 2 pipe, 1 injector no 4 pipe, 1 injector seal and 1 com corer- what ever that is...approx(900), both injectors will have to be recharged and tested.. I have a copy of the analysis done and what now worries me is this line . "May have further problems", I wonder is it time to get rid of the car.
also the people in the queue in front of at the garage had the same problem with a vauxhall, and they were treathing the garage with a solicitor...
I did try for Goodwill and may get 5% off the parts, goodwill comes in if the car is only 1 month out of warranty....
also good point about the reprogramming, when I called back the office was closed. will try this on monday, what that how yours was fixed?
The staff at the office were friendly but could do nothing in regards to costs.
In regards to a common problem, I've got that impression from for reading the internet and speaking to a mechnic at another garage.
All good stuff.
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I don't think that the TDCI's are necessarily any less reliable than average. The snag is that when you do get a fault it soon becomes very very expensive. I have a mate who runs a business fixing diesels for a living and as he puts it, "one wobble and you're into four figures". There are a heck of a lot of parts on a TDCI in addition to the basic engine management (i.e. dual mass flywheel, turbo etc) and its all high-precision engineered and expensive.
You will have to balance the cost of repair against the value of the car. Ford will duck and weave to avoid paying out on cars IN warranty, so I don't think there is much chance of any help out of warranty. If the car is driveable then consider a quick P/X against something else.
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Unless your prepared to slug it out with Ford in a small claims court then get rid of the thing. I'm sure there's a business opportunity for someone to install Duratec petrol engines in TDCis.
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I did get through to ford customer services and after they reviewed the case, they were unable to assist me in anyway.
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My year old Mondeo TDCI also had the flat spot around 2000rpm which is quite common.
After a recommendation in the HJ letters page a couple of weeks back I got a bottle of Millers Sport4 diesel additive and it got rid of the flat spot almost immediately. Using this and well known diesel brands should keep the system clean too. No black smoke or misfires (touch wood).
I get between 40 and 45mpg with mixed driving.
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I did get through to ford customer services and after they reviewed the case, they were unable to assist me in anyway.
Write a letter, do NOT phone, phone calls are handled by junior staff, even agency staff, letters are taken more seriously especially if addressed to the MD or Customer Services Director. Dont give up.
The Customer Services Director
Ford Customer Relationship Centre
PO Box 4430
Coventry
CV3 9BH
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My car is a 2005 2.0TDI Silver and with 16,000 miles, last week it needed two new injectors after similar problems. What future is there for me with a practically new car that is having problems now? The Customer Services Manager said that they had not any previous issues with fuel systems, on reading these posts this clearly was not true. I would like to pin Ford down and get this fuel thing sorted, I've seen where someone has said that if the poroblem keeps recurring Ford have to make amends by offering me some sort of compensation. As this is my first vehicle under warranty (and my biggest cash outlay) I am not just sure as to how to proceed with my concerns. I just don't trust the thing now. Any info/advice greatly appreciated.
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My car is a 2005 2.0TDI Silver and with 16 000 miles last week it needed two new injectors after similar problems. What future is there for me with a practically new car that is having problems now? >>
There are loads of TDCis on the road and relatively few problems however those with problems gravitate towards a site like this, I have had one case of an injector needing reprogramming in nearly 5 years and 115k miles.
You have a lot of warranty left, if it is OK once fixed though dont worry, make sure it is serviced by a Ford dealer though.
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">I have had one case of an injector needing reprogramming in nearly 5 years and 115k miles.<"
And merely to balance Cheddy's offering, I've never had to have any work undertaken on injectors fitted to various cars in 400k plus, and 100k was in a deseail (although the fuel pump packed up at 100k). No TDCis though.
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This saga will run and run - obviously there are loads of these vehicles and their derivatives around and a proportion of these will give trouble. Transits are as bad as Mondeos.
What does concern me however is the quality of the fuel injection equipment specified by Ford. Ford are a highly cost concious and profit motivated Company and will not pay Bosch prices. The offending part of Delphi was formed partly by the acquisition of an old established UK fuel systems company which I had connections with. In typical US style, they got the business without the know-how. There is no small diesel capability in the US as economy is not on their agenda, hence the need for a European fuel systems operation.
I would suggest some careful thought before parting with money, taking into account the backup from the manufacturer. It's surprising how few of other makers' fuel systems are irreparably damaged by "water in the fuel" and other "misfortunes".
659.
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Stats dont back that up, warranty figures suggest that Ford suffer far fewer fuel system problems than Toyota for instance. I strongly beleive it is a matter of the Mondeo being so numerous and doing above average mileage so even if the number of Mondeo issues are simply average there would be a lot more Mondeo issue reported on here than for most other cars and of course people with issues gravitate to a site like this.
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We've had a TDCi for 3 years now. Perhaps 6 times has the injector light come on in the dashboard, always from startup and associated with rough running (only firing on three cylinders?). A switch off, short wait, and restart cured the problem each time, followed by an italian tune-up. This has not happened for over a year now. Car still returns 45 - 52 mpg.
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Its not the fact that TDCis have these problems, it's the way the manufacturer treats owners that causes concern.
Other manufacturers take a different approach; this taken from a rather obscure motoring column:
">
I'm usually the first to complain when I receive a level of service below expectations and so feel I should publicly acknowledge BMW's goodwill. My March 2002 530d SE suffered turbo failure after 74,000 miles, two months short of its fifth birthday. I did not purchase an extended warranty as no previous vehicle of mine had suffered a catastrophic failure. The car was towed to Dick Lovett in Hungerford, where it was examined and a report sent to BMW along with a goodwill claim. BMW offered to replace the turbo, inlet manifold, catalytic converter and all four injectors. I was asked to pay the labour costs only, which amounted to £435 plus VAT. Dick Lovett also drained the intercooler and, after all the work had been done, examined the engine for consequential damage. Fortunately, there was none. I'm still a big fan and will certainly buy BMWs again.
<"
As an aside, does the 530d only have 6 injectors? I assumed it was a 6 cylinder needing 6 injectors.
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">only have 6 injectors?<"
No, "only have 4" Time to retire I think, 170 miles of making good progress on country roads with the top down has clearly eroded my mental faculties.
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I have had, and am still having the injection / glowplug light flashing problems listed in all the above thread, on my 02 plate 2L Ghia TDCI. 54,000 miles on the clock. It is in the local dealer as i write. At 52,000 miles I had a new No1 Injector in Feb 07 and had to return it two weeks later for a "re-programming". I was told at the time, with a shrug of the shoulders, that if it happens again i will need a new set of injectors. That leaves me staring down the barrel of a bill for £1,000. I will not entertain a plea of water in the fuel by anyone.
I have driven a considerable number of miles over my lifetime in both petrol and diesel vehicles. 80,000 miles in Vauxhall Astra Diesel , 2 Diesel Escorts to 78,000+ each; 1 Diesel Peugeot 306 still running round with my daughter in it at 110,000 miles. I have never, never ever had problems with water in fuel. Nor any other fuel injection related problems.
So Ford's argument is shot down there. It is obvious that the problem is a technical (quality) one as already described in several items in this thread.
Additional to this i have had the rear suspension sub-frame bushes replaced at a cost of £200, which i have also discovered is a common fault. I bet there's a thread on that one too! Again an obvious design fault because they modify the frame and glue the bushes in.
I think it is shocking that Ford can carry out their research and development at the expense of their customers. I would have thought the least they can do is make the replacements much cheaper. I suspect that they are passing the full mark up through on parts.
Anyway, I am now faced with the dilemma of keeping the damn thing, because i've spent so much on it, or getting rid and cutting my losses. Oh sorry - can't afford another car!
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A quick search of my previous threads on TDCis will show how defensive I have previously been of the TDCi engine. Through bitter experience, however, I have now had to change allegiances, having recently been on the wrong end of a £500 bill for the no1 injector, and even more recently £1400 for a new turbo. [this has been documented on another thread over in discussion]. I have to agree with Aprilla and others who basically tell us to get rid of these things before the warranty expires. I was going well on a 4 year old car, but was then stung. I've taken the decision to swallow my losses, and insure against any others by going for the same car with the 2 litre petrol engine which I hope will eventually be a safer buy to keep beyond warranty (currently one year old). Of course it will go wrong; they all do. But hopefully it will not be as costly as the diesel. My old Cavalier diesel, in its time, had just about everything replaced that could be (bar the engine itself); in 165K miles I never paid more than £400 for a bill. Don't get me wrong, the TDCi is a fine car and a joy to drive. But it is ludicrous (and something of a modern day scandal) to expect private buyers to risk 4 figure bills for so many basic repairs. These comments are not confined to the Ford, but apply to all CR diesels - take a look at comments on that XTrail - a car I really would have liked, but for the issues with the engine.
I'm really not enjoying driving the petrol as much (except when stationary!), but then my confidence in the modern CR diesel has been shaken. I suppose, one day, I'll go back to them, but not before I've purchased as much additional warranty as I can pack in to a deal - warranty which will cover injectors, turbos and anything else which seems so expensive to mend.
So from my bitter experience, the advice has to be - get shot of it.
Splodgeface
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Good diesel fuel injection equipment is expensive.
Our American and Japanese friends have no interest in their home terretories in small diesels (or the planet), so they have to seek local assistance in Europe where the diesel market is too big to ignore.
Ford have linked with PSA, GM with Fiat/Isuzu in order to address this sector of the market. Ford and GM are highly profit motivated organisations and it hurts them too much to buy a fuel system from a specialist such as Bosch on a large scale (there will always be odd "bits").
Enter Delphi, a conglomerate of acquisitions, the diesel fuel systems part of which arose from the ashes of a UK specialist. They got the Company without the know-how. At risk of repetition, Delphi is to diesel fuel systems as FoMoCo was to carburettors - for all the same reasons - cost.
Buy a true European diesel with a Bosch fuel system, take good care of it and you will almost certainly reap the full benefits of an engine which is not constrained to run at a constant air/fuel ratio.
659.
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OK, so which engines use Bosch? Which are the good diesels?
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My VAG PD diesel is all Bosch as is my partner's ancient Pug 106D. Neither has given any engine trouble, both have the water drained from the filter bowl at every service, both get Bosch fuel filters every 20k miles or so. Neither has ever been mis-fuelled.
659.
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hey , i get 35mpg with my 2l Duratec, so why mess with those derv donkeys, leave them to the dumper trucks, it makes sense.
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>>Enter Delphi, a conglomerate of acquisitions................
Buy a true European diesel with a Bosch fuel system>>
Utter carp 659, utter carp, ALL CR diesels are highly sophistcated and expensive to repair however there is no evidence to suggest Delphi systems are less reliable than others, yes a number of TDCi failures are reported however TDCis are also far more numerous than others and cover above average mileages, very few Jag diesel problems caome to light though it is the same engine, just far less numerous. If fact stats that are available such as Warranty Direct rate Ford fulke systems as more reliable and cheaper to repair than the like of Toyota.
Furthermore the chain cam Ford / Jag Delphi CR unit is so superior to the 40k cambelt change, VAG / Bosch cam driven PD pump unit in engineering terms as well as refinement and performance and at least its equal on efficiency that simply does not bear comparison.
My TDCi is coming up to 120k, it literally drives as new (and I have had it since new so I can say that), it required one injector reprogramming at about 70k (1/2 hour labour), yes it may have an expensive failure around the corner though it has saved iro £4000 over a petrol equivilent and at least £1000 in cambelt change costs over that mileage (40k, 80k, 120k) over a PD.
Nevertheless sorry to hear about Splodgefaces experiences.
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The current recommendation for the VAG PD engine cambelt change is 4 years/60k miles whichever occurs sooner.
I wish you luck with your Delphi fuelled vehicle - the nature of the problem is such that you may have got a good one - I hope so.
I have been in the diesel engine business for many years and merely comment upon what I find.
659.
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there is no evidence to suggest Delphi systems are less reliable than others
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=42...2
The evidence may not be sufficient to prove the case, and yes, there may be far more delphi than denso units on the road, but that surely constitutes some evidence.
My recommendation is that if Splodgeface wants a good, reliable, CR diesel vehicle, he should buy Cheddar's - when (or should that be 'if'?) Cheddar decides to sell it.
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Renault use a Delphi common-rail fuel system on the 1.5 dCi engine, and the odd EGR problem apart, which is completely unrelated to the fuel injection system, is regarded generally as a very reliable unit. My previous company ran a fleet of 30 or so Megane dCi 106's up to between 80,000 and 120,000 miles and not one suffered any form of fuel system failure. Electrical faults and build issues yes, but the reliability of the engines was first class.
I wouldn't begin to claim knowledge of similarities and differences between the Delphi system fitted to the Renault engine, and that fitted to the Ford unit, but I can't believe there is an issue with Delphi systems as a whole.
Cheers
DP
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>> there is no evidence to suggest Delphi systems are less reliable than others www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=42...2
The assertion in that link that the Jag uses a different fuel system is untrue, it is the same, the only difference is that the 2.0 Jag uses a 5 speed (Getrag IIRC) gearbox where as the 2.0 Mondeo uses the same 6 speed box as the 2.2 Mondeo and Jag.
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the jaguar injection system is basically the same mechanicals but electronically very different with 5 pulse injector firing to shut the racket up. The electronics are totally remapped & designed by an outside company that jaguar put a lot of money into to improve the drive.
Interestingly enough jaguar have had an improved reliability.
I have had a 2ltr absolutley faultless & now a 2.2 & the performance is staggering for a diesel & drives very differently to a colleges 2.2 mondeo so he was very dissapointed in the dofference in noise & performance
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the jaguar injection system is basically the same mechanicals but electronically very different with 5 pulse injector firing to shut the racket up. The electronics are totally remapped & designed by an outside company that jaguar put a lot of money into to improve the drive. Interestingly enough jaguar have had an improved reliability.
I have a leased 54 Jaguar x-type 2.0S.
Since new it has suffered the 1800rpm hesitating as per the above comments.
I have been through 3 Jaguar dealers service departments, at one visit there were 3 X-types in for the same problem.
The car has had several engine management re-programs, and it has had the entire fuel system flushed, with new injectors and new pump. Sometimes the car was better for a short period of time, but never fixed.
Three years later I still have the same problem, in fact it is now worse, hesitates at 1500, 1800, and sticks at 500 rpm when started for about 15 seconds.
The last Jaguar dealer said "There is nothing more we can do, we are awaiting a fix from Jaguar" ?
Is there a definite fix for this problem, that I can go back to the dealer with ?
Luckily my lease car is up for replacement soon, I will definately be avoiding anything with the ford TDCI engine.
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Jag Man. Is the hesitation slight & just an iritation? if so have you tried driving with the AC off just to see if its that!. My 2.2 had a real hicup as you went to pull away, Diconnected the battery overnight, restarted in the morning & drove it gently for 500 miles learning curve period ( checked with jag ) including used 2 cans of DAE speciffically recomended fuel system cleaner in full tank of fuel (DAE find on net ) & hicup gone & has never come back. With AC on I do notice a hicup at 1800rpm but never with it off.
You could also try when cold running it at 1250 1750 & 2250 rpm static hold dead steady at these speeds & if it starts to run lumpy at all it needs injectors recoding. My jaguar dealer was useless as they don't have experience of diesels in general but I touched base with a specialist who sorted recoding on 2.0d for me a couple of years ago.
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the jaguar injection system is basically the same mechanicals but electronically very different with 5 pulse injector firing ..........Interestingly enough jaguar have had an improved reliability. ........ drives very differently to a colleges 2.2 mondeo so he was very dissapointed .............>>
This differs from what I have been told, new gen updates have at various times been introduced first on the Jag or the Mondeo, the first X-Type 2.0d was a generation ahead of the Mondeo for a while and was more problematic for it until the bugs were ironed out, Jag dealers at the time did not have the knowledge and often sent the cars to the Ford dealer. Perhaps your 2.2 X-Type is on a different level from the 2.2 Mondeo you mention.
I remember a roadtest claiming that the Jag was "so much more refined than the Mondeo it is based on" though it transpired that they were comparing it with a TDDi not a TDCi.
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My recommendation is that if Splodgeface wants a good reliable CR diesel vehicle he should buy Cheddar's - when (or should that be 'if'?) Cheddar decides to sell it.
No disrespect to Cheddar or his car, but I've had my time with diesels for a while. Time to give the other side a run...
Splodgeface
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I've just been agonising over whether to pay near as dammit £1000/yr for MB ServicePlus (service and repair cover) on my 3 yr old Mercedes with the old 2.7L 5cyl common rail diesel engine.
Reading this made makes me glad I decided to go for it!
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Yes some TDCIs seem great - but can you gamble with that sort of cash?
I wouldn't but others need to make their own decisons after reading as much as possible.
Also, the driving experience is different on a diesel as compared to a petrol, you do get something for your money.
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